In this episode Shane Gibson sits down with data modeling veteran’s John Giles and Remco Broekmans

The conversation explores the premise of democratising data modeling through AI, centered around a paper published by John regarding where AI can and cannot add real value. The group highlights the critical importance of conceptual and context data modeling, stressing that business terms and definitions must be established upfront before looking at physical source tables. They strongly critique the anti-pattern of placing humans “at the end of the line” merely to rubber-stamp automated outputs, arguing instead for an “AI-in-the-loop” approach where technology serves strictly as an assistant under human direction.

The discussion also dives deep into complex real-world scenarios where automated tools fail—specifically when physical data or source systems do not yet exist. John shares extreme edge cases, such as establishing a brand-new government department from scratch based on a vague Act of Parliament, unifying over 70 distinct healthcare organisations into a single model, and modeling evolving visions like the Australian wool industry. Remco breaks down his multi-agent ELM framework, explaining how introducing deliberate manual friction points between LLM tasks keeps human modelers in control and why model-storming workshops, human trust, and organisational culture are far more vital than push-button automation.

Whether you are curious about conceptual modeling techniques, how to effectively integrate “AI in the loop” while avoiding push-button modeling pitfalls, or strategies for aligning business definitions across complex organisations, this episode is packed with valuable insights for data professionals.